Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Those are very informative. Not born again huh? Got a few of my own. We outed ourselves, started. Now I guess I would say seek professional help and hopefully you can work out a mode of recovery that works for you. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? I cant imagine the pain and loss you experienced. It's disturbing. The one thing we learned is that you cannot change someone else. That is an exaggeration and overstatement. John Marshall Sproul, M.D., of Mercer Island, died suddenly October 6, 2018 at home. In such churches (at least from my experience), excommunication is a public process. ), I didnt appreciate Barbaras comment to me and H.U.G. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Friend your comment made me weep. Apparently you dont understand the nature of alcoholism if you dont think his case is bad enough. I do agree with George because I believe that scripture passage is the Word of God. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. If we ban someone from our blog, we put their email address on the blacklist which means that WordPress will then automatically send any comment submitted from that email address to our Spam folder. I was not laughing at alcoholics. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. 5, that you mention: I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. This is probably the best option for all involved. Improper judgement is known to be observed during alcohol impairment. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. That has been debunked through the years. As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. This website has been following RC SproulJr for years and has documented many problems with his ministry. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. Clearly. Instead he said the charges against his son were fraudulent which meant he was basically accusing everyone of being liars. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. I know its hard, I do cry for strength, I dont always like him for the damage done to our family. I believen you may not know that history with JR. Thanks for giving us that information. I spoke as softly as I did (from your POV) because others here apparently do not realize that drunkenness is clearly called a sin in the Bible. But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. I just see no need for this be endlessly rehashed. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. His whole life changed, and being with him was completely different from then on. I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). Ah, but by their theology, he also bears a certain immunity. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. You deal really well with troubled waters. But I also fully agree with you. Am very familiar with alcoholism, drug abuse. Wine for all (no grape juicewhat are you, some kind of wimp?) at communion. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! I did go back to my faith family. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. In fact, they need to drink quantities, just to feel normal and function normally. But then (if Im remembering right), at some point in the progression of the disease, they cross some boundary and reach the point where they cant hold their liquor anymore. And some are Christus Victor and a few are governmental. You intentionally ignored what I posted. 4. Its deeply odd for a grown man to mock anyone who doesnt drink. Those children need help as well. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? Leave him alone! Then, the preacher gets up and delivers a sermon with a title such as, How to Have a Successful Marriage.. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Televangelists and other huckster preachers have done it many times. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. Hi Scott, what a thoughtful comment. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jr's children still deal with today. I hope Sproul Jr gets help, but tbh his theology preaches such a hateful God that if I had to believe it Id turn to drink too. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. By the way if you had bothered to read the post, you can see I did find some help by way of material by MHPs, but I had to find that material on my own, because the MHPs I consulted in person over years were or no help. The county health plan and hospital also has appointments for people who cant afford private care. I watch RC continue to persevere through terrible physical pains preaching Gods word wearing an oxygen mask . I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). He has suffered tragedies, yes. Obviously, I dont know what goes on behind closed doors. I think Ive read that some people have linked drug and alcohol additions to life situations/trauma/etc and said once that moment in their life passed they were able to drop the drugs and/or alcohol with little problem. Radiology was the only thing I was board certified in. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. He who is without sin cast the first stone. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. She did however advocate that people with addictions be kicked out of the church. "I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. Hes on audio stating that when he went into court the next morning, he had no memory of the previous evening and didnt even know if his boys were alive or dead. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus). Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. RC Sproul has a very twisted view of the Trinity and the Crucifixion. There is so much more to Scripture than just Matthew 18:15-17 when it comes to dealing with people with problems. I was stopped, he was doing 55 in a 35. Neither one of us are church goers and our family is no overly religious. Exactly. Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. Its not helpful, I know. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. He held degrees from Westminster College (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh . First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. If its 2 and 3 he is being monitored somewhat closely and I assume is less of a danger to society, at least on the road. What he did was wrong. Thank God it was always so late, thus basically no traffic. I dont see myself sharing about deep grief over the sudden loss of a loved one with anyone, especially not in the family. People should not have to die or be maimed before our courts meet out punishments that suit the crime. Velour wrote: We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language]. He is now a wonderful father and husband. I am glad you got help and that your life is better. Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. Youre absolutely correct about the damage that these false teachings have done to so many people who will forever associate them with the church and wont step foot in a church again. I respectfully disagree. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Velour, we get your point (how could we fail to see it when youve made it so many times?). Hopefully they get to Al-Anon and counseling. Velour wrote: One of the hardest things was having the front half of my head shaved. Ugh. So I agree with Barbara, but not just because RC Jr is an alcoholic but for much much more than that. @Deb, its hard for me to express the outrage I feel for the drunk driver who took the lives of your friends parents and for the physical and emotional suffering they inflicted on you and your friend. The scene was an absolute tidal wave of love. But yesterday I had to go back and let them look at a post-op problem that has arisen, and the delightful surgeon in the office who saw me was a man. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. You are correct. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. Sproul was driving under the influence. This is not all that safe sometimes. Good insights. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. I've enclosed a letter from Lael Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I've been in contact with. Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. Other people were subjected to the same treatment. Many non Christians came and eventually came to The Lord. Dear friends, Now that my rant is over, I feel that if a business can tell tell an employee Joe you have a problem thats affecting your work, get help then a church should be able in love to request/require an individual to get treatment. Lots more is known about addictions these days. I did check the link that H.A. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Please keep our nations decision makers in prayer over the next few weeks. Is it only Christ? has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). Have about addictions person is dead serious about sobriety again after seeing father! Churches ( at least from my experience ), I do cry for,. Overly religious the next few weeks to re-visit this thread to read any new! 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